Why I’m Not, And Never Will Be, A Roman Catholic (Reason 5: Teachings On Mary)
April 12, 2013
Dulia: veneration given to icons, relics, saints, etc.
Hyper-dulia: special veneration given to Mary.
Latria: worship given to God.
(James White discusses Rome’s un-Biblical uses of “dulia” and “latria”)
After reading more about the official teachings of the Church in regard to Mary, this became one of the clearest points of doctrine for me as to why I believe Rome has gone astray. Many of the functions given to God the Son have increasingly been mimicked in Mary over the history of the Church. In 1854, the Church declared the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and that it is required to believe for salvation. It is now integral to the gospel. Then in 1950, the doctrine of the Bodily Assumption was declared as dogma. Many Catholics I’ve spoken with say these teachings were not “new”, nor became “official”, but were “re-confirmed”.
I would argue that saying something is “re-confirmed” is sketchy, when supposedly it’s supposed to have been part of a universal tradition. I believe that these can historically be proven to have not been any kind of universal “tradition” of the early church especially.
But none of this concerns me the most. It’s how Mary is almost deified by the Church. They use the Latin word “hyper-dulia” (doluo in Greek) and attribute it to Mary, however, in the OT and the NT, duluo is forbidden in a religious context to anyone, or anything, other than Yahweh. In addition, the functions of Christ have been mimicked in Mary.
She is now considered sinless, she has never physically died but was bodily assumed, she is called the Queen of Heaven, she is called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, she is prayed to, she is asked for mercy, she is a co-Mediator and a co-Redemptrix along side Christ! These dogmas are binding upon the soul for salvation by Rome, yet have no Biblical basis whatsoever. The Bible gives us Jesus — Emmanuel, or “God with us” — as the unique, loving, gracious, Mediator. Yet, many Roman Catholics live in fear of this Mediator, unless they have Mary to give them peace about him.
Functions do matter. Jesus answered the Jews in John 5 when they charged him of making himself out to be “the God” (o theos). Jesus did not back down. He pushed them even further and explained his function as the Son, namely, that all judgment has been given to him by the Father — a divine attribute. So when Catholics see Mary functioning in all these ways as Christ Jesus, it has enormous implications on one’s view of Mary and Christ. Mary is brought up, and Christ is now sharing a gigantic part of his glory with her. She now becomes a mediator to the Mediator! For those whom are Christ-centered in all their theology, this can only be considered blasphemous.
Christ is no longer the only one whom has a unique role as the Mediator of the Church. This is to such an extent that she is actually viewed as a co-Redemptrix of Christ. She aids in our salvation! Some uneducated Catholics aren’t aware of these teachings. Some Catholic prayers even give mention asking for Mary to save them from the wrath of Jesus! This clearly takes away from the fact that Jesus is our all-sufficient High Priest. Mary is also included.
To me this is a clear indication that Rome has side-stepped the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and has elevated the status of Mary so much that she virtually matches all the functions of the 2nd person of the Trinity on behalf of God’s people. Because of this elevation of Mary over the years, and reaching its pinnacle in 1854 and 1950, I believe that many Catholics have unconsciously developed a monad-like view of God, rather than a Trinitarian one. And a monad view of God is very dangerous. Yes, I know that the Catholic Church holds to the doctrine of the Trinity, but my point is that when they go to Mary as a Mediator they are going to a nearly deified monad.
Thus, in turn, I believe their default view of God becomes one of a strict monad, while they maintain that Mary is more approachable than Christ or the Father. A monad view generally leads people to legalism. It overemphasizes God as a single person. God carries out his will for arbitrary and seemingly fascist reasons. However, a pure Trinitarian worldview (not merely doctrine!) leads one to know that God carries out his will, not only as a single person, but also as 3 persons — as an eternal community. With a monad, as with Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Islam, etc. God is seemingly fascist and his servants are very dutiful for the sake of appeasing him.
With a pure Trinitarian view, the whole story of redemption begins to make more sense. We originally were created to worship God. Due to sin, the relationship between us and God was broken. Two families were created, one unto Satan and sin, and one which would be brought back to God (redemption), by God. The 2nd person of the Trinity (the Son) carries out this plan (the Father’s will), and is completely successful because he loves the Father. The Father gives the Son the Spirit (3rd person) to help bring it to pass, and the Father helps the Son succeed. We are redeemed back to God and can be a part of the Triune love and relationship we were created for. Jesus Christ is an efficacious Savior, not merely a hypothetical Savior. The Trinity makes it so. Salvation is not just for our benefit, but for the persons of the Trinity to benefit each other in love. Mary is not part of this Triune exchange.
But the emphasis, I’m afraid, is taken off of Christ and is almost replaced with Mary. None of this should be of any surprise when one’s ultimate authority is the Papacy, not Scripture. Scripture is rife with Jesus alone being our Savior, alone being our Mediator, and alone bringing us into his kingdom as children with full access to the Father. Scripture does not focus on Mary — it focuses on the Son. The Father does not draw attention to himself but to the Son, the main character of the story. The Spirit likewise does not draw attention to himself in the story, but is always there helping the Son. Yet, the Catholic Church has taken the few mentions of Mary, and has made these passages all about her, not mainly about Christ. Christ is the focus. Even the passages about Mary are to point us to Christ, as he is Emmanuel, God with us. If Mary is distracting from the main person of the story, then it’s the wrong story.
But is it any wonder why many Catholics still feel distant from Christ, but very close to Mary? The Bible is read through the lens of the official teachings of the Church, and the Biblical concept of Christ being the only Mediator, and the only Redeemer is very foreign to the Roman Catholic mentality (at least those whom are very in tune with its official teachings). My prayer and hope is that Christ would be made the focus of the story for all whom are truly redeemed back to him!
John 17:24-26 “Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
Rom 5:8-11 “but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
Rom 8:14-17 “For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.”
Restore The Gospel 
I am amazed at how much energy is placed in distancing oneself from being one of the Bride of Christ. Even the most intelligent become the least enlightened when in pride or denial. Don’t fight the truth. Don’t fight love. You are choosing not to love the Mother of God, Jesus Christ. You have written a dissertation on how not to love her. Do you understand what is happening – what you are doing? You don’t use reason; you just fight to stay a Protestant. That’s what it is all about. I’ve been a Protestant; I thoroughly understand the political agenda.
Jesus Christ came from the womb of Mary; he took her flesh as His own. Your God has Mary’s genes. He gave Mary to us all as our Mother. Yet you play the Protestant political agenda?
Also, I am amazed at how a self-professed Christian can spend so much energy on finding a means to hate his brother – just because he is a Catholic, more faithful to Christ and His Apostles (who gave us our Tradition) than all other Christians.
Brother, if you want freedom (which comes with God) and truth, find a good college like Christendom College and seek an excellent, ground-roots theological education. Don’t settle for less. Be a loving, uniter and not a protesting divider.
So, how do you think Jesus Christ respects His Mother Mary? Do you think he honors His Mother?> Do you think Jesus Christ lacks the integrity of fulfilling the commandment he laid out to Moses to honor our parents? And should we not also honor the Mother of Jesus Christ? Would you push her aside in the presence of Jesus Christ? Really? That is what you are doing here, is it not? Now remember also that there have been many Marian apparitions in time – God sends Mary to comfort us. Have you not studied these apparitions? And do you reject a mother’s love that God extends to us? Do you understand God at all? Do you know why God gives children both mothers and fathers? Does God ever speak of comforting us as a mother? Do you read Isaiah? Do you know that God speaks of us as a Bride? Do you understand that? Do you study scripture? Do you pray or do you just think of ways to separate yourself from the Christ’s Church? Stop protesting. Do you know how the word “protestant” came about?
Francis, welcome…
Rejecting the RCC is denial and pride to you, yet if Rome has strayed from the real gospel then it is actually in denial and pride and would have to repent.
I have written a dissertation on how to love Christ. Scripture makes much of Christ, and does not portray Mary the way the Church has evolved her over time.
Jesus’s incarnate body had Mary’s genes, yes. He also had her parents genes. That doesn’t mean we give them hyper-dulia either. In fact, the significance of Jesus having human genes isn’t so that we would revere the one whom the genes are passed from. Christ himself created the genes! What is impressive with him carrying on the genes is that it means he is the God-Man, descended from Adam, thus the second Adam who would reconcile sinners to God. These truths are to all the more have us make much of Christ, NOT make much of Mary. You have it profoundly backwards.
Do you disagree with Mormons? According to your logic, you hate them. You are simply wrongfully speculating my motives. Was Jesus hateful when he told the woman at the well that she does not know what she believes? According to your logic he was being hateful, rather than loving in truth.
I would not give her dulia, let alone hyper-dulia. Again, dulia is forbidden, in a religious context, for anything and anyone other than God in Scripture. I respect my mother, just as Jesus would have respected his mother, but that does not mean I give hyper-dulia to my mother. You do not give hyper-dulia to your mother. Mat 12:48-50 ““Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
We are created in God’s image, male and female. God is, within his own being, the greatest reality of
male and female. He takes on feminine roles in that he is submissive and nurturing. He also takes on masculine roles in that he leads. He is not either/or, God is both/and. Mat 23:37 “How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”
I’m glad you asked. Yes, I do pray. I pray that Christ is known Biblically. The RCC does a fine job of separating itself from others. Augustine believed that Christ was the “rock” in Mat 16:18 and said that we have the freedom to interpret how we want, yet if one holds this position today, according to Trent, they are anathema. I am a Protestant nominally, and theologically. It’s shorthand for a theological position, not necessarily that I am only agaisnt something. This is nothing new, and after 500 years of history you should be able to realize this by now when it comes to the term “protestant”. I also consider myself Reformed, which suggests a set of positive beliefs, not merely a negation of beliefs. You also have a negation of beliefs in that you deny that Biblically “dulia” is only reserved for God in a religious context.
If you’re going to commit ad-hominums and can’t have a respectful dialogue on here, then it is clear that your traditions run deeper than your charity.
Rome has not strayed from the real Gospel. Rome gave the entire Canon of Scripture to the entire Church of Christ and taught it with love and perseverance. That is why you have the Scriptures today. Rome has been faithful. Read your history and be humble. You would have very little without Rome. Again, you borne false witness through your implications that Rome does not teach the real Gospel.
You say Scripture has not written much about Mary. What about the prophecy that the virgin would bear a son who would be the Messiah? What about the lady in Revelation? What about the Annunciation? The visitation to Elizabeth? The Magnificat? What about Marriage at Cana? What about Mary’s presentation of the Child Jesus at the Temple and her purification? What about Mary’s and Joseph’s fleeing to Egypt to save their Infant Jesus? What about Mary an Joseph’s finding Jesus in the Temple after they had lost track of Him? What about Mary’s presence along the route when Jesus carried His Cross? What about Mary’s presence at His Crucifixion? What about Jesus’ giving Mary away to St. John and to us (according to St. Paul’s teaching)? What about Mary’s presence at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit flooded the room? What about Mary’s analogous comparison to the Ark of the Covenant – for she held the Word in her Holy Womb – and even those who dared touch the Ark could be struck down – to show how sacred the Ark was to God? Why did the Apostles and Sacred Authors even mention Mary if she was to be totally dismissed? Do you not discern these deep, spiritual insights? Or do you only see the literal words and their Merriam-Webster definitions? Spiritual discernment comes through prayer for those who obey the Holy Spirit.
You have completely missed the point. You are far, far away from understanding and loving as Christ loves His own Mother. How to be another Christ / like Christ if one seeks to undermine that love which is due His own Mother? Seek out a Catholic priest; ask him about the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) [if you are not already Catholic] and attend a good RCIA session where they can open your heart to some of these hidden mysteries. Considering joining the Church in obedience to Christ – for it is those who obey God who are given His Holy Spirit and all of His Gifts.
You say that Rome has not strayed from the real gospel, yet if you are a Roman Catholic you must realize that Rome has added to the gospel. The early church did not consider the Immaculate Conception as integral to the gospel for salvation, yet in 1854 it became so! The gospel of Scripture has always been the same, hence 1 Clement in the 1st century speaking of justification by faith in Christ. This is the real gospel that has the longest pedigree, not the modern Roman Catholic gospel.
Did the Catholic Church give the Jews their canon? No. Did Jesus expect the Jews to know the canon (Mat 22:19)? Yes! The RCC cannot “give” us the canon. A canon cannot be made, but can only be realized. It is realized by God’s people, by God’s Spirit, not an ultimate authority, as the Jews never had an ultimate authority and recognized the canon. But let me ask you, does the RCC authorize the canon or does the canon authorize the RCC?
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me”
These Mariam doctrines have made people focus more on Mary than on Jesus, whom the Scriptures point to. “Tradition” (which is really just an evolved teaching) has replaced the Christ-centered gospel of Scripture. Your replies on here are a perfect example of why I wrote this thread in the first place.
Jesus is our High Priest (Heb 7-10). He does not need a co-Mediator, nor does he need a co-Redemptrix! This is blasphemy. Mary’s heart would be broken if she knew that she was elevated to these things by men. God is a jealous God and will not allow his glory to be diverted to a co-Mediator. Jesus is fully capable of Mediating between sinful man and God, hence being the God-Man! I pray that you’ll see the efficacious sufficiency of Christ!
I’m sorry, but you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing but without understanding and wisdom. You bear false witness, though you not how (through ignorance). Take time to study the teachings of the Catholic Church (the one true Bride of Christ). Learn to love. You are trying, but you don’t understand much – not really. I was there like you. Keep learning. You can do it! 🙂
Thanks Francis.
1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
Correct Cameron, and a mother is a most excellent mediator between her son and those who wish to gain the trust of her son. Peace to you.
There is no Biblical mention of a mediator for the Mediator Christ Jesus. It doesn’t even make sense in the Trinitarian story of redemption to have someone mediate for the Mediator. Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us, and needs no help. We don’t gain the Sons trust, but rather put our trust in him because he is True. We are heirs of the promise in Christ, and by Christ! Christ gives us the best imaginable standing, all by himself.
Mat 15:6 “So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.”
Cameron – learn the spiritual sense of what you read. Try to understand Jesus Christ as a whole Person rather than just understanding Him by only the words we have captured in Scripture. St. John stated it well when he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write: “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” and also “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” [both are from St. John’s Gospel, RSV Holy Bible]. Use Scripture as your firm foundation, but pray to learn more about Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit and also those friends that are with Jesus right now. We are surrounded by a “cloud of witnesses” according to Holy Scripture. So, with academic understanding, move beyond into application and understanding.
Ok, so you tell me to not just go by Scripture, but then you quote Scripture? And then you quote Scripture to tell me to not just go by Scripture? This is profoundly circular.
Scripture is the foundation, of course. But learn to operate also based upon the synthesis of Scripture in your soul.
Reasoning by the “soul” is circular, as even Mormons do this, but more importantly it is dangerous. Pope Honorius, for example, tried this and was lead into heresy.
Jer 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Quick questions for you, Cameron: If I died and was taken up into heaven and was allowed to be personally in the presence of Jesus Christ (e.g., just me and Jesus – the other 143,999 souls are somewhere else), and given that this must mean that Jesus has a particular role for me, do you think that He would grant me a favor for you if I asked Him to – because I used my free will to ask and because you asked me to ask? Do you think that Jesus talks to others who are with Him in heaven? As you think this over, if you were a king who loves your mother, and your mother was completely dependent upon you, would you allow her in your presence and would you listen to her? (keeping in mind that as King, you are not on earth with your 12 knights conquering the world – you have already conquered and are waiting to return in victory).
Theology does not come from “what ifs”. It comes from what is God-breathed. Jesus has the unique role of interceding for his people, hence his completed work of atonement on their behalf, just as the priests in the OT where the primary means of mediation for the people of God. Modern Catholic theology smacks in the face of this consistent typological hermeneutic. The ability to know the inner thoughts of a person, and knowing what they need better than the person themselves, is a work of the Son and the Spirit. It is a divine work, and a Trinitarian work alone.
Pray for humility and understanding. But humility is required before understanding. I have done that. You should too.
Believing the Scriptural teaching that Jesus alone is our Mediator is the greatest humility. You need to pray for that type of humility.
You are not ready to teach.
You say I am not ready to teach because you refuse, reject, and distance yourself from the unique role of Christ as Mediator, thus reject whom he truly is for the sake of your tradition. It is not I that teach you, but Scripture. You must take it up with Scripture, not me. The Scripture is ready to teach you, yet you refuse to humble yourself to its teachings.
Please. This is fruitless. I only suggest that you should take some time to mellow – pick up understanding and wisdom. Attend a Catholic Church service for a few times – get to know some Catholics – get to know that Catholics actually love God. Your tone is hateful against Catholics. That is not Jesus talking in you. So, please do pray – be open to your brethren – don’t assume to know – do listen, look, learn and try not to be so judgmental of what you do not yet understand. Patience – endurance – prayer – perseverance – and humility.
Most of my family is Catholic, as well as some of my best friends. Rather than you asking me my background, you are quick to assume. Was Jesus’ tone hateful when he told the woman at the well that she doesn’t know what she believes? You are reading hate into my tone, while it is actually out of truth and love that the real Mediator is presented to you, yet you do not humble yourself and still distance yourself from Christ and cling to your tradition. You tell me not to be so judgmental, yet again, it is the RCC that is very judgmental in that it anathematizes any who disagree with this false tradition. It takes more humility to believe that Christ is our unique Mediator, and that he alone makes us heirs in him, by him. I pray that someday you will have that type of humility.
Full grace to you in Christ alone friend!
Cameron, calm down and listen to a wise man, the Pope. You’re stupid compared to him. But don’t take that to heart; I am stupid compared to him as well:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-answering-god-with-the-heart-protects-against-ideologies/
And Pope Honorius was stupid compared to both of us, hence why one flaw is enough not to trust an ultimate authority such as the Papacy. No offense intended to you, but that is the historical fact of the matter. He erred doctrinally, and it makes no sense for a supposed Vicar of Christ to ever do. You know that my ultimate authority is what is God-breathed. Why don’t you stick to the topic at hand. If not, then please stop posting on here.
The Pope will not tell you that you are now fully close to Christ. But the Mediator Christ will tell you so! Think about whom you are listening to and whom you are not for the sake of modern Catholic tradition. There are many Christian communities out there willing to explain to you the full riches of Christ alone.
No, frankly, you’re very proud to claim that Pope Honorius was stupid compared to both of us. I’m shocked by that unfortunate statement – placing yourself above the Pope. You sit there with 1,500 years of other peoples’ knowledge and wisdom accumulated since Pope Honorius’ time and then look back on Pope Honorius with an air of superiority? Not wise. Note that Pope Honorius made a statement in regard to the Monothelite heresy which he failed to clarify (he admitted that Christ’s will was to do the Father’s will and that the two wills could not conflict because Christ comes to do the Will of the Father as is mentioned time and time again in the Scriptures) and he did not clarify the obvious truth that Christ still has a human will in addition to his divine will. This back-channel communication was not made or intended to be ex cathedra. So your concern regarding Pope Honorius, while he should have been clearer, is not really a valid argument since he was not writing ex cathedra. Basic study of the history (from valid sources) shows this. Read Warren Carroll’s “A History of Christendom” series; it will do you good.
Your blog says “Then in 1950, the doctrine of the Bodily Resurrection was decreed. ” LoL! This is incorrect – you have inadvertently (I hope) created a false doctrine and have borne false witness against the Catholic Church all in one statement.
First of all, Municifentissimus Deus was released in 1950 to announce the DOGMA (which is not doctrine) on the Assumption (not the “Bodily Resurrection”). Please read the dogma here. Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven after the end of her earthly life. Please read it:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
Also, for a lot of details on how to understand the doctrine and dogma about Mary in the Church – how it all developed, buy and read this book:
“Mariology: A Guide for Priests, Deacons, Seminarians, and Consecrated Persons” by Mark Miravalle, 2007.
Would please listen and understand before you go off creating false doctrines? Please? Good grief!!!!
Are there 2 people whom I’m responding to now? Be honest. I’m suspect because your approach and tone has utterly shifted all of a sudden.
I take back my remarks about Honorius. I don’t know what lead him to teach something that was un-orthodox, and I fully acknowledge that we stand on the shoulders of many giants. I will be the first to admit this. I really don’t mean to call him stupid. What is stupid is how Rome expects people to believe that Vicars of Christ can entertain heresy, WHETHER OR NOT they are speaking ex-cathedra. That was my original point, and it has been completely ignored.
The official teaching comes from the decree of Munificentissimus Deus by pope Pius XII. I’m well aware that it’s called the Bodily Assumption. Even in a debate by Bishop Pacwa he refers to merit as meaning “earned”, while someone of his caliber should know that Catholics don’t use the term “earned”, but rather “rewarded”. Yet, I have never “LOL” at him for making this error. Thanks, I’ll update my blog, but it is this type of pedantic critique (“Resurrection” [sic], “ha ha ha!”) that is utterly missing the face smacking matter at hand, which is that man-made RCC traditions of Mary have skewed the efficacy of Christ’s mediator-ship, and you haven’t blinked in doing so, but instead laugh. My friend, it is this type of behavior that is actually disrespectful, and is not humble.
What is a greater offense? Me “creating” a false doctrine against Rome (which we both know I didn’t do 😀 ), or Rome creating a false doctrine which takes away from Christ’s unique role as the only Mediator? That which is God-breathed knows nothing of the doctrines of Mary that Rome binds upon the souls of its followers. That is why you must tell me to read books by men.
This is why I said to pray for humility. You can’t make progress without humility. None of us can.